Viking Issues - Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers2024-03-29T12:37:10Zhttps://zenith.aero/forum/topics/viking-issues?commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A655494&feed=yes&xn_auth=noZenith 750
Posted by Steve…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6557862018-12-03T21:11:24.958ZR Michael Moorehttps://zenith.aero/profile/RMichaelMoore
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<li><a class="nolink">Posted by Steve Kemnitzer</a><a class="nolink"><span> </span>on December 3, 2018 at 10:51am in<span> </span></a><a href="http://www.zenith.aero/forum/categories/classified-for-sale-postings/listForCategory">Classified / For Sale Postings…</a></li>
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<div class="xg_headline xg_headline-img xg_headline-2l"><div class="tb"><h1>Zenith 750</h1>
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<li><a class="nolink">Posted by Steve Kemnitzer</a><a class="nolink"><span> </span>on December 3, 2018 at 10:51am in<span> </span></a><a href="http://www.zenith.aero/forum/categories/classified-for-sale-postings/listForCategory">Classified / For Sale Postings</a></li>
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<div class="xg_module_body"><div class="discussion"><div class="description"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Airplane suffered an engine failure. <strong>UL Power 350is.</strong> The wing tips are damaged and other area. Could easily be rebuilt. The plane has only 200 hours. Full Dynon Skyview avionics. New tires and brakes. Ready for a project. $22,500 or best offer. steve@kemnitzer.net 415.328.8675 Located in Napa, CA</p>
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<p><em><strong>Unfortunate. But highly relevant to this thread. </strong></em></p>
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</div> Hello John...
Excellent clar…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6557702018-12-03T04:33:32.737ZR Michael Moorehttps://zenith.aero/profile/RMichaelMoore
<p>Hello John...</p>
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<p>Excellent clarification. Much appreciated. </p>
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<p>What we see here is a close parallel between our Zenith Forum and Australia ATSB where bad data was used in two cases (Viking and Jabiru) to bring harm to small and growing engine manufacturers. </p>
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<p>Whether by Internet web page and forum, or by a misguided regulator, the result is still the same. Potential buyers can be misled. We all know that what is on the Internet lives…</p>
<p>Hello John...</p>
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<p>Excellent clarification. Much appreciated. </p>
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<p>What we see here is a close parallel between our Zenith Forum and Australia ATSB where bad data was used in two cases (Viking and Jabiru) to bring harm to small and growing engine manufacturers. </p>
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<p>Whether by Internet web page and forum, or by a misguided regulator, the result is still the same. Potential buyers can be misled. We all know that what is on the Internet lives forever. </p>
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<p>In addition, in both cases the engine developers took appropriate steps. Both Jabiru and Viking deserve, as you and I have done, to be presented in a fair and proper manner based on current and complete information. Indeed, all facts do matter. </p>
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<p>Just as Viking upgraded the critical part, it is obvious Jabiru has done the same for its identified failings. That is readily apparent as noted as in your notation.. <em>560+ trouble-free hours on 3rd generation Jabiru 3300. </em> And now 4th gen.<em> </em></p>
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<p>The smaller Jabiru 2200 also had serious growing pains BUT which have also long been rectified. I understand that the four big issues with the 2200 engines were insufficient lubrication of the upper valve train, through bolt failure, flywheel bolt failure and cylinder head overheating. The Service Bulletins and cooling fin modifications appear to have addressed all of these issues.</p>
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<p>So I think the picture is now quite well clarified. </p>
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<p>Let us appreciate the wealth of well proven engine alternatives now available and supported by Zenith. Choices are good to have, especially when all the options are also good. </p>
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<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p>RMM</p> That Australian CASA study wa…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6555392018-12-03T03:24:43.279ZJohn Austinhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JohnLAustin
<p>That Australian CASA study was based on very bad data. AFTER the "study" was published, the data was available for detailed analysis. Turns out some of this was highly questionable as some of the "engine failures" were student pilots who got lost and ran out of gas! Guess if I was a student pilot and my engine quit, I would claim the "engine failed" rather than admit to my incompetence. Last time I checked, every engine ever built "fails" if it runs out of fuel. Another curious thing is…</p>
<p>That Australian CASA study was based on very bad data. AFTER the "study" was published, the data was available for detailed analysis. Turns out some of this was highly questionable as some of the "engine failures" were student pilots who got lost and ran out of gas! Guess if I was a student pilot and my engine quit, I would claim the "engine failed" rather than admit to my incompetence. Last time I checked, every engine ever built "fails" if it runs out of fuel. Another curious thing is that Jabiru has now been manufacturing engines for 30 years with continuous product quality improvement and is on its 4th generation presently. In the USA, if the FAA finds a problem with an engine, the serial numbers or dates of manufacture are specified, but the Aussies simply lumped <em>all</em> the engines together - we don't know if they were 20 years, 20 months, or 20 weeks old when they had a problem.</p>
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<p>As a Jabiru owner, I was concerned when this study came out and discussed it with Pete Krotje at Jabiru USA, the US distributor for Jabiru engines and the principal maintenance facility and parts source for Jabiru engines. He said there was absolutely NO correlation with the problems reported in the CASA study vs problems in US engines as evidenced by repairs or parts orders. Approximately half of the Jabiru engines ever built are in the US and don't seem to have near the incidence of problems, so this adds further evidence that the Australian study was highly flawed.</p>
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<p>A little-know fact is that Jabiru aircraft (which are of course, 100% powered by the same Jabiru engines available to the EAB community) have excellent long-term safety records. A quote from Jabiru discussing the CASA issue:</p>
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<p><em><span>“Jabiru had addressed most of the identified problems over three years ago. I believe CASA has been negligent because they never consulted with us before they introduced the consultation draft, and they pulled the rug out from under us while we were on the plane on the way down. They couldn’t wait another day to talk about the issue, which really tells you what the intent was; the intent was obviously to damage us to the point where we couldn’t survive.</span><br/><span>“When we finally worked that out with RA-Aus we spent a whole weekend going through the 40 events, comparing it with our list of failures, and working out which were just maintenance items like leaking fuel pumps, or simply running out of fuel, which were all on the CASA list. When we’d tidied it up we actually added some to the CASA list and when that was sorted out there were 12 actual in-flight engine failures which led to genuine forced landings. But that was in 93,000 flights, and 43,000 flying hours. And it was mainly flying schools because Jabirus are such popular training aircraft. We already had corrective measures in place for almost all of those 12, and had implemented them since 2011.”</span><br/><span>In earlier discussions, Jabiru had offered CASA information from a detailed survey of light sport aircraft safety in the United States, conducted by Aviation Consumer magazine, which placed Jabiru’s safety record in the top three of over a dozen types along with Cessna 152 and Cessna Skycatcher in three categories:</span><br/><span>• Overall accident rate per 100,000 hours of flight (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152);</span><br/><span>• Fatal accident rate (Jabiru’s score was zero in USA); and</span><br/><span>• Accidents per hundred aeroplanes registered (Jabiru was second only to Cessna 152 and Skycatcher.</span></em></p>
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<p>Just the facts!</p>
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<p>John</p>
<p>N750A</p>
<p>(560+ trouble-free hours on 3rd generation Jabiru 3300)</p>
<p>(No business or commercial affiliation with Jabiru)</p> Jabiru engines were involved…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6557682018-12-03T00:32:57.719ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<p><strong>Jabiru engines were involved in the most engine failures or malfunctions with 130 reported over the 6 years</strong>.</p>
<p><strong>Jabiru engines were involved in the most engine failures or malfunctions with 130 reported over the 6 years</strong>.</p> Unfortunately, the part in qu…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6555332018-12-03T00:31:42.734ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<p>Unfortunately, the part in question did need to be updated. It was done a long time ago. The airplane in question was not a good build and those that saw it were horrified it was even flying. Not a gift to the Zenith community or Viking </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the part in question did need to be updated. It was done a long time ago. The airplane in question was not a good build and those that saw it were horrified it was even flying. Not a gift to the Zenith community or Viking </p> You have no idea about that. …tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-03:2606393:Comment:6557662018-12-03T00:29:20.988ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<p>You have no idea about that. We made a decision to improve on some parts. </p>
<p>Do you have any idea how far "Half Way to Alaska" if from Florida in a SD with a prototype aircraft :)</p>
<p>You have no idea about that. We made a decision to improve on some parts. </p>
<p>Do you have any idea how far "Half Way to Alaska" if from Florida in a SD with a prototype aircraft :)</p> Viking has felt no need to in…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-02:2606393:Comment:6556972018-12-02T15:49:22.990ZJan Eggenfellnerhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JanEggenfellner
<p>Viking has felt no need to interact or defend itself in these matters, due to the fact that ALL of the information is already out there and has been- and quite frankly Michael stated matters just as clearly and efficiently as we could of, heck better - proving that the information is out there. </p>
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<p>Between that and the massive number of happy customers - the matter need not turn into a he said - she said with a number of back and forth conversations had on this matter…</p>
<p>Viking has felt no need to interact or defend itself in these matters, due to the fact that ALL of the information is already out there and has been- and quite frankly Michael stated matters just as clearly and efficiently as we could of, heck better - proving that the information is out there. </p>
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<p>Between that and the massive number of happy customers - the matter need not turn into a he said - she said with a number of back and forth conversations had on this matter with every customer - we simply have no time for something that was already settled and taken care of.</p>
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<p>That being said even massive companies all around the world aviation, vehicles etc. have had massive recalls and fixes for them and provided a fix, just as we did. You can have happy customers all over the world and have the few that feel the need to continue to try and bring someone down - and being a small company they feel like they can cause the most damage because they can individual attack a person for blame, unlike that of a large corporation.</p>
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<p><span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #000000; cursor: text; font-family: Arial,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">This was no "secret" Plus, any manufacturer who has had "No" problems is the one you should be worried about. Every individual in this matter was contacted and every one taken care of - a lot of those customers flying happily now. </span></p>
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<p>A thank you to our Viking customers that are happy and are successfully flying for thousands of hours and we would rather spend our time for our customers than an already settled matter for nothing more than pure retaliation and blame and will continue working hard to provide both a quality product at an affordable price. </p>
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<p>Leave the drama for the kiddos and get back to building and flying!</p>
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<p>Thank you, </p>
<p>Alissa</p>
<p>Viking Aircraft Engines</p> Thanks John...
Well said. I…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-02:2606393:Comment:6556962018-12-02T14:16:27.876ZR Michael Moorehttps://zenith.aero/profile/RMichaelMoore
<p>Thanks John...</p>
<p>Well said. In my long post of factual information, I provided the link to the thread referenced by John just now.</p>
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<p>The examples from multiple other engine suppliers that I provided simply show how engine development works. </p>
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<p>I would invite readers to do as I have over the past nearly ten years and follow the Viking forum. There it is easy to gain an accurate picture of how the company functions, its engine development process, and…</p>
<p>Thanks John...</p>
<p>Well said. In my long post of factual information, I provided the link to the thread referenced by John just now.</p>
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<p>The examples from multiple other engine suppliers that I provided simply show how engine development works. </p>
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<p>I would invite readers to do as I have over the past nearly ten years and follow the Viking forum. There it is easy to gain an accurate picture of how the company functions, its engine development process, and genuine customer experience. </p>
<p> <em><strong><a href="https://vikingaircraftengines.ning.com/" target="_blank">https://vikingaircraftengines.ning.com/</a></strong></em></p>
<p>Watching Viking's hard earned success in providing more engine choices for Zenith builders as well as builders of multiple other aircraft kit makers has been a valuable education. </p>
<p></p> MODERATOR's NOTE:
Michael is…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-02:2606393:Comment:6554462018-12-02T13:39:24.348ZJohn Austinhttps://zenith.aero/profile/JohnLAustin
<p>MODERATOR's NOTE:</p>
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<p>Michael is certainly correct that there may be a problem or series of problems with <em>any</em> engine brand. By the same reasoning, it is not unexpected that an occasional report of a negative experience with <em>any</em> engine brand can occur. In this particular discussion, each member can assess how factual is the information/documentation of the report. Mr. Eggenfellner has addressed at least one of the issues in a separate discussion in this…</p>
<p>MODERATOR's NOTE:</p>
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<p>Michael is certainly correct that there may be a problem or series of problems with <em>any</em> engine brand. By the same reasoning, it is not unexpected that an occasional report of a negative experience with <em>any</em> engine brand can occur. In this particular discussion, each member can assess how factual is the information/documentation of the report. Mr. Eggenfellner has addressed at least one of the issues in a separate discussion in this forum.</p>
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<p>As moderator, all that I ask is not to ascribe motives to members on either side of an issue. Please just present the facts, stay on-topic, and be courteous. Now would be a good time to review the <a href="http://www.zenith.aero/notes/Member_Rules" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Member Rules.</a></p>
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<p>We have a great membership with so much useful information and advice to share! Thanks for the privilege of participating with you.</p>
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<p>John</p>
<p>Zenith.aero Forum Moderator</p>
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<p></p> And more from CONTINENTAL..
A…tag:zenith.aero,2018-12-02:2606393:Comment:6554432018-12-02T10:28:07.669ZR Michael Moorehttps://zenith.aero/profile/RMichaelMoore
<p>And more from CONTINENTAL..</p>
<p>April 2017 - Plane and Pilot...</p>
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<p><span>Late last month, Continental Motors [ONLY JUST NOW} issued a mandatory service bulletin (MSB) to replace camshaft gears on several models of its IO-470, IO-520 and IO-550 series engines. Continental introduced a replacement gear <strong>more than a decade ago,</strong> but many engines remain in service with the old part, which is prone to failure. The MSB requires that owners replace the old gears at 100…</span></p>
<p>And more from CONTINENTAL..</p>
<p>April 2017 - Plane and Pilot...</p>
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<p><span>Late last month, Continental Motors [ONLY JUST NOW} issued a mandatory service bulletin (MSB) to replace camshaft gears on several models of its IO-470, IO-520 and IO-550 series engines. Continental introduced a replacement gear <strong>more than a decade ago,</strong> but many engines remain in service with the old part, which is prone to failure. The MSB requires that owners replace the old gears at 100 hours time in service, at the next engine overhaul or within 12 calendar years, whichever happens first. The MSB will affect thousands of aircraft equipped with these engines.</span></p>