Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Samuel H Drake on February 28, 2016 at 4:14pm

This one place that I can agree with Jan Eggenfellner.  I have written before that I thought (and still think) that the piston speed is too high with the Honda engine but liquid cooling is much more reliable and gear drive allows a smaller and lighter engine.  Electronic injection is far superior to carburetors and between liquid cooling and the injection the fuel burn is much less.  Air cooled engines are usually partially liquid cooled but they use gasoline as the coolant.  If I was designing engines, I might use an air cooled engine for a lawn mower but I would still think hard about it.

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Permalink Reply by Wayne Tyson on February 27, 2016 at 8:58pm

Anecdote is the singular of data.

W

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Permalink Reply by Barry Sweeney on February 27, 2016 at 9:48pm

Jeremy, It is prudent to think ahead, but not too far as things change. If you pick a commercially available engine from a dealer they will be very keen to help, if you decide on a auto conversion it will be usually up to date . You could follow the Raven Redrive honda build as they have been in it for a long time and do not  rush things. If you get an auto conversion visit the builder at some time preferably not at showtime . If possible pick the motor up yourself and do look at the homebuilthelp site to get some idea. Barry. Perth Western Australia

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Permalink Reply by Shafid Khan on February 27, 2016 at 10:18pm

Keep it simple unless you are living besides an engine shop. Jabiru 3300 is a simple and nice running engine. Parts are available and easy to maintain. make sure that the cooling system is properly installed. O-200D is another simple and a proven engine. Some of the modern aircraft engines and car engines converted to aircraft engine maybe fine and good looking but too much electronics, hard to repair in the middle of a paddock. Also reliant on a good battery power and high pressure fuel systems. Over the years I have had aircrafts with Rotax, good engine but has its own problems, Jabiru 2200 which gave me lots of lying hours, Lycoming and Continental  engines in other planes and a Subaru engine in Foxcon aircraft.

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Permalink Reply by Jerold Ebke on February 27, 2016 at 11:26pm

Jeremy,

I have a ULPower 350i rated at 118HP with the ground adjustable composite Sensenich prop in my 650.

I am a new Sport Pilot with only 150 hours and 75 in my plane.

I am a first time builder.

I am super pleased with the UL engine installed following the Zenith firewall forward instructions.

The oil temp and cylinder temps are great. The engine has smoothness with the prop as I am flying it and performs  up to my expectations in both cruise and climb. I see around 115-120 mph TAS at 2550 RPM burning around 5.5 GPH of 91 octane auto fuel at 5000 feet and can climb solo with 30 gallons of fuel in excess of 1000 fpm.

Robert Helms, the UL rep in the US is great to work with. He responded to all my questions, even at night and on weekends by email, if he was available and would call back or answer his phone, more predictably than even your dentist. Robert has teamed up with an experienced mechanic, Ray Lawrence who is great help as well. Both of them are great and knowledgable guys. Notice I used the word great 3 times.

Believe me, as I had multiple questions during my installation, and they were always patient as well as helpful to keep me moving forward.

Needless to say, I am extremely happy I went with UL and am already planning my next retirement build in a few years with another UL engine.

I still need to tell the wife about those plans.

Best of luck. There are many great options. Keep building something every day.

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Permalink Reply by Lawrence Van Egmond on February 28, 2016 at 3:02pm

I know you said no Rotax but I think you are leaving out an engine that has an excellent reliability record, is very easy to operate ( no mixture, shock cooling etc ) and has a very complete firewall forward package that is quite simple to install. It also has very good weight to power ratio. My Rotax powered CH 750 will outperform a Continental 0200 in every phase of flight.

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Permalink Reply by Wayne Tyson on February 28, 2016 at 1:38am

Context is everything.

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Permalink Reply by Jackson Ordean on February 27, 2016 at 10:50pm

 WW Corvair.  If you actually wanted information on one, you could go to FlyCorvair.com and .net and spend some time and learn something.  You could pay a minimal amount for the engine build manual and actually learn something substantial from an arrogant bastard who's devoted his adult life to perfecting the engine for flight and encouraging grassroots 'made in usa' hombuilding.  You could even spend a little money to buy a dvd or 3 how to disassemble and build the engine.  You could actually find out why emails have been difficult the last couple months.  You'd also find out WW is setting up a whirlwind tour of the country doing 4 free 'colleges', numerous small meetings all free with builders across the country.  Or continue to ask everyone for their personal opinion which, like mine, only has value to me.

Finally, or maybe I should say first, ask yourself if water cooling is any good at all once a leak starts (leak = lower pressure = boiling = process of diminishing returns).  Ask yourself how many miles more your pistons will travel up and down cylinders at 5000rpm, 5000 feet from the ground. Ask yourself why you would want a PSRU in your power system whether or not it is 'aerospace' quality.  So was the Challenger.  Any engine that draws from reliability for any reason is not something to risk your life on.  But, hey,.....you might have to do some reading elsewhere than here.  

Just sayin,

Jackson

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Permalink Reply by Danie Taljaard@ Renier Nieuwoudt on February 28, 2016 at 12:10am

I also need to select a engine for my Stol 750 project. Not easy to select an engine . Also not very keen on a Rotax. I favour the Jabi 3300 but understand that the Camit engine is an successful upgrade on the Jabi 3300. Any comments from the engine specialists.

Danie Taljaard from Thabazimbi South Africa.

 

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Permalink Reply by Wayne Tyson on February 28, 2016 at 1:43am

My advice is "Don't take my advice." Or anyone else's. Unless it's John Austin's.

WT

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Permalink Reply by William Wynne on February 28, 2016 at 2:04am

Friends, here are some perspectives from 27 years in the engine game, They are written to be thought provoking, not thought providing.

 

There is no 'right' engine for a Zenith, however, there is a 'right' engine for each builder, and it differs because what builders want from a power plant varies a lot. Every engine provider will agree with me that the average guy doesn't do enough research at examining his own needs and considering how well each selection will serve them. Sebastien and crew do a lot to support their builders making educated choices. The best examples of this are the "Engine Day" at Oshkosh and also the Engine panel discussions at the September open houses. Other manufactures like to dictate the motor, Zenith provides the opportunity to choose...but each builder must do some individual homework to make a choice that he will be happy with long term.

 

Something to Know:

Here is something most new builders don't understand: Almost all of us engine providers know each other pretty well, and while we all like our own approach, none of us expect every builder to agree with us, and this is part of the reason why we get along. You can see pictures of most of us hanging out after hours in my Oshkosh tent and we have a tradition of all eating dinner at the Mexican restaurant in Mexico MO after the last day of the open house. We all know each others products pretty well, and it is quite common at Oshkosh to have any of us listen to a builder for 15 minutes, and then introduce him to another engine because it is a better match for his plans. When a guy says he wants the lightest engine and cost isn't a major factor, He isn't a Corvair guy, so I introduce him to Robert and UL's. If a guy wants a complete engine, and he likes the idea of higher tech, I will introduce him to Jann. If the guy likes simpler engines and strong customer contact, He should also meet Pete at Jab usa. This works both ways, because if the guy is on a pay as you go budget or wants to learn a lot of hands on engine building skills, then the guys will send him my way for a look at the Corvair. What none of us wants is any customer who didn't look close enough before deciding, and then is cranky when he has an expectation that could have been avoided with a little homework. The example I always bring up is a guy saying "I am choosing between a Corvair and a Viking" That guy needs to do more homework, because Jann and I both agree that we actually have near zero builder overlap, and our two engines and programs serve different builders. Without a little more consideration, he is making a poor guess rather than a well considered choice.

 

The Personality Factor:

You are not getting married to your engine provider, but you do have to have good working relationship, and this boils down to both the builder and the engine provider having respect for each other. It is a two way street. Each of us offer a different appeal to different builders. Pete is probably match for builders who expect a traditional business. Robert is the most easy going guy, Jann likes innovation, I am focused on hands on teaching. We all have our down sides also. I am opinionated and outspoken, and I tell builders what they need to know, which isn't always what they want to hear. A builder who knows everything about the engine, but nothing about his ability to respectfully work with the man behind it, needs to do more homework. 

 

Customer reviews:

Builders spend too much time looking at negative comments on engines from people who are dissatisfied. First consider that all the engines mentioned have flown all over the US on the front of Zeniths for many years. They all work, there is nothing wrong with any of them. If 10 guys have 500 trouble fee hours, and you have the same engine and operate it the same way, then you will have the same experience, physics and reality work like that. Each of them has plenty of positive examples with 100's of trouble free hours. These were not logged by luck, they are examples of builders who did their homework, had the strengths of the engine and program match their needs, and Critically, they have a respectful working relationship with the provider. Now go back and look at any negative review, and it frequently becomes apparent that the builder could have avoided the mismatch by doing more homework. That isn't a knock on any dissatisfied guys, just an encouragement to do more homework. 

 

Opinions, comments and judgments:

Discussion on engines often is well meaning, but often from guys who understand little more than the weight and price of each engine, and that isn't enough for anyone to base a choice on. Other information is anecdotal from one report. Real research is more in depth The previous comments include opinions that a Corvair is a heavy, low altitude engine. reality: Andy Eliott's 601XL pulled a documented gross weight TO with a 13,900' DA. Although a Rotax 912 is 45lbs lighter than a Corvair, The useful load on the Corvair is higher because the plane will stay in CG at any loading. All engines have in depth answers that make sense to misconceptions that people get, and repeat, without doing enough homework.

 

I have been working with the Corvair since 1989. I have missed one Oshkosh in the last 20 years, We put the first Corvair on our own Zenith in 2003, I have more than 100 builders flying the combination, I have been at every Zenith open house in the last 10 years, and I have held three Corvair Colleges at the factory, my website has 1.25 million page reads in the last 36 months, but still........People don't take a good enough look and do their homework before deciding, either for or against the engine. Want to make a better choice? Invest time and do your homework. -ww.

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Permalink Reply by John Austin on February 28, 2016 at 6:42am

And now, time for a message from the Moderator ...

At last count, there were 41 responses to this topic (which was  posted less than 2 days ago)! Seems like "engine choices" not only concerns cylinder head temps and oil pressure, but forum members' temperatures and blood pressures! It always is a "hot topic" and we usually all think we have the best choice of engine and seek affirmation.

I would encourage you to review the Member Rules (Click "Info & FAQ" upper right corner this page and select "Member Rules"). The Rules remind everyone to have fun and provide relevant information, but do not allow for personal attacks or "flaming."  Like your Mommy said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything!"  If one has communication problems with vendors, etc., say it - but don't offensively characterize their personality or parentage!

John

Zenith.aero Forum Moderator

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