Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bill Carter on May 28, 2014 at 6:12pm

Joe, I was going to stay out of this until that last post which you responded to so perfectly. Dejan is undoubtedly a genius and knows all of the aviation world inside out. But, he could definitely use some additional training on human relations. If there is anyone who should be ashamed of anything on this it's the person who with one statement tried to take the whole experimental community and put us into one can! No pun intended. Those were very rude comments to make on a forum for experimental aircraft. I'm with you Joe!

Permalink Reply by Troy Hartman on May 28, 2014 at 3:32pm

Hi Dejan,

Thanks for this information. These are the details that we would dive into, should we find an aircraft. It's very possible the load forces of the drogue might be too much for the Zenith. We've found creative ways to distribute the load through the entire aircraft, such that it isn't excessive at any one point. In the end we always stick to the numbers. As reckless as it may seem, it is a very well engineered stunt.

Thanks again. It's refreshing to get some constructive input.

Troy

Permalink Reply by Walt Snyder on May 28, 2014 at 3:08pm

Troy, 

"Wow. The few of you posting here aren't very open minded. I would hope the rest of the Zenith community isn't that way. Again, we've used experimental aircraft in the past and paid the owners, legally. Many other production companies have done the same. The aircraft is covered by the production insurance."

I'm not going to get into the debate of the safety issues on this, but I really take exception to you laying it out like it's perfectly legal, and those of us that question any of this "aren't very open minded'

Does the person in the left of the picture below look familiar? Does his plane? Think that could be his plane and him piloting it in the picture you attached? How in the hell can you say how legit you are when that person, a good friend of mine, has never had a pilot's license, never had any type of insurance, and if you remember correctly, had to dead stick that plane after the skydiver got into the cockpit because he could not restart the engine. 

You know as well as I do that nothing is "legal" about what you are asking Zenith pilots to attempt, and you are going to disregard the regs and rules and cover it, just as you did then. You also know he was killed two years ago attempting to do something else in an airplane he shouldn't have. He was a great pilot, even taught my daughter to fly ultralights, but following rules and regs were not his strong point, and that is what you are trying to find here. 

I'd think twice before trying to BS some of the pilots in this forum, and then try to paint us as "aren't very open minded" 

Walt Snyder

Permalink Reply by Joe Scheibinger on May 28, 2014 at 3:17pm

Walt, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. I hope your post is an eye opener and I thank you for taking the time to post this.

Permalink Reply by Troy Hartman on May 28, 2014 at 3:24pm

Chuck was a very good friend of mine as well.

We did this stunt in the early days by breaking regs. It was the only way we could prove it would work. We had to take the "ask for forgiveness" approach. I was willing to give up my license for 90 days to create history. My choice. Same with Chuck. 

What we are trying to do this time is the opposite. We want to do it legitimately. We are simply following the direction given by our FSDO. The process has been laid out. There are boxes to check, but they are far fewer than trying to get the modification to a standard certified aircraft approved. The waiver for compensation is easy.

I'm not trying to BS anybody. I'm a straight shooter.

Permalink Reply by Thomas A Muller on May 28, 2014 at 4:22pm

Many of the of aeronautical regulations were "written in blood" because they also represent the laws of physics.  Unlike some other laws, most American pilots know the FAARS were written to protect us and our passengers and that we break them at our peril.  Experimental aircraft, even those with "discarded car engines", are inspected by the FAA or a DAR before first flight and inspected yearly by a qualified mechanic after that.  Even so, losing an engine and gliding into a field at 30-50mph is far less dangerous than losing control of the aircraft when it is headed straight down.  By the way, aircraft not certificated for aerobatics, whether certificated or experimental, are prohibited from diving more than 30 degrees nose down.  Why don't you take your stunt off this forum and out of the experimental world.  If you can get a FSDO to go along with this on a certificated airplane, fine, otherwise find another country, too!  Conservative and thoughtful is not the same thing as narrow minded!

Permalink Reply by Troy Hartman on May 28, 2014 at 5:50pm

Again, we are simply choosing which battles to take on in the process of getting approval. Waivers for aerobatics and compensation using an experimental are much easier to get than an approval for this sort of modification on a certified aircraft. So unfortunately, the experimental world is stuck with us.

Permalink Reply by Walt Snyder on May 28, 2014 at 5:19pm

Troy,

Again, I'm not here to debate the safety issue, we all have different levels of acceptable risks and reasons why we have determined ours. I truly hope whatever arrangement you have now to legitimize this can be confirmed with a call to the FAA in Oklahoma, as there, not just a local FSDO, is where the ultimate interpretation is going to occur. And any competent attorney can confirm all insurances, licensing, coverage, etc. is in place in case of any issues.  

You said you were willing to give up losing your license for 90 days to create history. Understand what we have to lose in your venture if something goes wrong is the reputation of legitimacy of sport planes. Look what one documented and filmed accident did to the ultralight world. You lose a contract and move on, we lose years of progress and acceptance in the community. At best. 

Hopefully you'll now see that we merely "aren't very open minded" There may be some that go for this, though no matter how you slice this, that film is not going to sell sport planes or encourage people to fly, so it's of no benefit to us. There is only financial gain, and just because we recognize that, please don't discount us as close-minded. 

Walt Snyder

Permalink Reply by John Austin on May 28, 2014 at 6:30pm

And now, time for a message from your friendly forum moderator!

This topic has undoubtedly generated more responses in just a few hours than I can ever remember! Some of the responses have come very close to violating some of the forum's rules, which I would encourage everyone to read and re-read occasionally. Being the forum moderator is a thankless task that pays plenty - plenty of criticism, but I accepted being "volunteered" by Sebastien because we both wanted to keep Zenith.aero both positive and friendly.

I think due to the tremendous volume of responses, however, all views have been more-than-adequately represented and I'm therefore closing this topic to further discussion.

John

Zenith.aero Moderator

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