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Certified Version of CH 750 Super Duty
Does anyone know who I would call to build me a commercial certified version of the Zenith CH 750 Super Duty?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David J. Beaulieu on
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Thomas, what is your envioned use for the plane? (besides fly it)
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Permalink Reply by Thomas Elliott on
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I want to instruct others in it.
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I don't think there is such a thing Thomas. Factory may be able to tell you. Best you might get is an EAB with Special Airworthiness Certificate and then a LODA (Letter Of Deviation Authority) to instruct in that airframe. There is a lot of info available to sift through regarding this. Cheers! Dave
DISCLAIMER: Someone correct me if I am way off base here...
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Permalink Reply by Jonathon Payne on
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What kind of instruction are you trying to do? Initial instruction? Type transition instruction? STOL instruction?
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Jonathon, I would like to do all three types of instruction in a Zenith CH 750 SD.
There were two CH 750 which were being used for instruction. One was in Colorado Springs, 8 years ago. It flipped when a big gust of wing turned it over and destroyed it. The other was with a company called Buzz Aviation in Tennessee. They are transitioning owners right now. I was told they had theirs built as a certified airplane by Zenith. This is not correct. Zenith tells me they do not offer this service. So there is a company out there, somewhere, who does build certified Zeniths. But who are they and how does it work? David suggested I try to get an EAB. I don't know what that is but I'll look into it. the LODA is fairly easy to get to do Type Transitioning and, perhaps, STOL instruction. Do you have any ideas for me? Thank you so much.
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I'm not an expert at this. The only thing I know about aircraft certification is what I've learned in a casual reading of the regs over the years. That being said, it is my understanding that what you are describing with those two aircraft is effectively impossible for multiple reasons. The 750 SD doesn't fit into the definition of an LSA, so it can't be certified through ASTM standards.
The only option to do what you want is Part 23 certification. Neither process is done casually or for just one airplane, but from everything I understand Part 23 certification is an order of magnitude more complicated and expensive than ASTM certification. Both have historically only been done by companies seeking to recoup the expense by going into mass production. As far as I'm aware there have been no new single-engine piston airplanes certified under Part 23 in the past 20 years or so because of the expense and time involved. Any new ones have been LSAs certified using ASTM standards.
At any rate, all if this is probably moot since the design of the aircraft is Zenith intellectual property. I'm sure that if you paid Zenith enough they would put it through Part 23 certification, but that would be ludicrously expensive for just one airplane. Trying to do it yourself without Zenith's blessing might get you into legal trouble.
The only real option that you have is the LODA option mentioned earlier. The two 750s that you are aware of were probably operating under a LODA and did not have a type certificate. As an example, there is an individual with a Bearhawk who has a LODA to perform flight instruction in one of their aircraft. That being said, the LODA is very specific on who can receive instruction and what type of instruction can be performed. In short, the only thing that he can do is transition training for those who don't already have a Bearhawk but are planning on getting one or their insurance requires transition training before they would provide coverage. (reference: https://bearhawkforums.com/forum/bearhawk-general-discussion-news/6...). From what I understand about the 750 STOL and SD, their handling characteristics in slow flight would warrant a LODA for transition training.
The only other option would be to form a flying club around your 750 SD. Technically, all of the members of a flying club are co-owners of the airplane(s) owned by the club or leased back to the club and thus all members enjoy the regulatory privileges of ownership such as receiving instruction in their E-AB aircraft. As of right now each member would need a LODA because of the Warbirds Adventures SNAFU last year, but the only hassle is filing out the paperwork and submitting it to your FSDO. I've never heard of anyone being rejected. Bear in mind that only dues paying club members will be able to receive instruction this way. You can't take walk-ins off the street like a Part 61 flight school.
Members of my local EAA chapter formed a flying club around an E-AB kitplane that was donated to them because the owner became too ill to continue flying under SP regulations. From what I was told, the only issue they ran into was getting insurance for primary flight training. Apparently, it was prohibitively expensive and the only training that the club allows is currency training and tailwheel training. I don't have a number to go with what "prohibitively expensive" means, so it could be legitimately expensive or just too expensive for their sensibilities.
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Jonathon,
Thank you so much for this information. I was told by the school in TN that it is actually a fully certified airplane but I don't know how they received that certification or what it cost. They told me to call back next month as they are transitioning owners. I'll let the group know what I found out.
I think the LODA might be the way to go and for flying in the mountains around Aspen, Colorado. There are 4 "hidden" private airstrips in the mountains which I'm going to call the owners and see if I can do touch and goes for mountain flight training. Aspen Mountain Fliers or Aspen Bush Flying might be the name once it gets going. I have another guy, also a CFI, who will join me if we can make this happen. Thanks again!
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Permalink Reply by Jim and Amelia Isaacs on
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Every airplane with any current airworthiness certification could be called a “fully certified airplane.” This what the FAA registry has on the registration number of the Zenith 750 aircraft Buzzy used to give instruction in for compensation and is now located at the school in TN.
https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/Search/NNumberResult
It’s certainly different compared to most registrations, including what classification or category it is certified under. For mine, and probably most other Zenith aircraft, those are listed as “experimental” and “amateur built” respectively. For the 750 Buzzy used to give instruction in that is now at the school you talked to, they are “unknown” and “none”.
The manufacturer is listed as “Aircraft manufacturing and design” and they have a website where they state they build aircraft including the 750 http://www.newplane.com/
It would be interesting to read the airworthiness certificate posted in plain view in the airplane. Maybe they’d snap a picture of it and send it to you. BTW it had an O-200 under the cowl when he was giving instruction in it.
Its possible based on the serial number of that aircraft 750-003 it was built in Canada by Chris Heinz before he moved to Mexico, MO and switched to kit manufacturing only. Interesting.
If I had to guess Buzzy was giving instruction in that aircraft under a LODA before he had to fold up his business. The below link is the EAA article about last July’s LODA mess, it may provide you with some clarification about wanting to give flight instruction in an EAB aircraft.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-publications/eaa-news-and-aviation...
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Ok, I think I understand what's being discussed here and why there is so much confusion over this topic. N799US currently owned by Buzz Air Flight Academy is an S-LSA CH 750 STOL built by AMD. S-LSA aircraft can be used in flight instruction for compensation or hire as per FAR §91.327(a)(2). AMD used to manufacture S-LSA CH 750 STOL aircraft as well as the Zodiac XL, which was an S-LSA version of the CH 650, and a full Part 23 certified version of the 4-place CH 2000. However, there wasn't enough interest in these certified aircraft to keep production going. If memory serves me correctly they still sort of continue to exist as Eastman Aviation to support the aircraft that AMD used to produce.
What Thomas Elliott is talking about is the CH 750 Super Duty, which is a different aircraft from the 750 STOL from a regulatory standpoint. It has a max takeoff weight in excess of the LSA limit of 1,320 lbs. and has three seats, where an LSA is limited to two. For all the reasons I listed earlier, there isn't any feasible way to get one aircraft certified under Part 23, as that regulation wasn't written to do that. The LODA or flying club options still exist if he wants to instruct in his 750 SD, but the only way he will be able to open up a flight school like Buzz Air is to purchase an S-LSA CH 750 STOL like the one that they use.
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Jonathon,
I believe you are correct. I could not figure out how they had a certified Zenith built. When I called them, the person answer the phone didn't know either. The teaching part of Buzz has been sold to another individual so they will have more information when they take over. I do believe the LODA is the way to go. Thank you so much for your knowledge and helping me out. Thomas
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