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What is a "REAL" light sport aircraft engine?
What is a "REAL" light sport aircraft engine?
I was surprised to learn that many believe a "real" aircraft engine should not contain "unreliable" automotive parts, but rather "aircraft" parts. One individual just spent good money on what he considered to be a worthwhile since the engine supposedly did not contain any of these "automotive" parts.
First off, for an engine manufacturer NOT to use an abundance of mass produced, over the shelf, aftermarket or OEM auto parts, would not make any sense. Whom would want to fly behind any engine where the designer not only had to design the architecture of the engine itself, but also the composition of the piston rings.
Since the exact list of what parts are from what source, we will just go by what would be the norm
Cast parts such as:
The crank case, cylinder heads, intake manifold would normally be sourced from an aluminum casting house.
The Cylinders themselves could be automotive parts, parts made by someone that make / made OEM or aftermarket cylinders.
The oil filter, oil cooler, oil hoses, spark plugs, pistons, piston pins, piston pin cir-clips, all bearings, cylinder liners (if used), valves, valve seats, valve springs, valve hold down hardware, push-rods, any hydraulic tappets, rockers, oil pump gears, starter, gaskets, air filter, intake rubber couplings and clamps, fuel injectors, fuel regulator, spark plug wires, coils, the mighty ECU controller that actually runs the entire works, the electrical connections, the generator parts, the voltage regulator and the more are likely automotive or from some lawn tractor.
So, what is the point of all this? Well, just because it is direct drive and air cooled does not mean it is everything your brain think it is. Not good or bad, just not the "from the ground" up, all made for your aircraft, thing.
We just had a 2018 Honda Accord 1.5L GDI Turbo engine arrive today. All Honda tested. Not made for aircraft but a marvel of closely tested parts, ready to fly any light aircraft around.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jan Eggenfellner on
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Permalink Reply by christopher fryatt on
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here's some non automotive stuff, although I think you are calling out others
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200series_032012-web.pdf, 316 KB
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Actually, it is a car conversion
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ill agree continental did their part in ww2 but check this wiki out
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Yes, like I said.
Started out building car engines, then made conversions to aircraft. Happy we got that settled.
- Continental motors started out making car engines
- Continental Motors then used this knowledge to convert engines for aviation. (Car Conversion)
- Continental continued to manufacture low output engines - killing pilots for years with carbon poisoning, Lack of fuel mixture compensation with altitude, etc.
Then, as a last ditch. When sales dried up and sitting at a desk that no longer could make money buying / selling over inflated cylinders and push-rod tubes at a profit, the company sold out to China.
For those of you that want to hang on to an old fantasy, go ahead. At Viking we live in today's world, manufacture engines to today's specifications and interact with people that want to live in the real world of 2018.
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Permalink Reply by david shrader on
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With that analogy (car conversion) why not go all the way back to the steam engine.
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Permalink Reply by Darryl Legg on
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If you want to sell your car engines why not just do it on your own web site, this is not a commercial forum and pushing your products here is against the forums rules.
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Telling the truth is not pushing anything.
"152 mph so far. Will go faster, but reluctant to push Vne. Only external mods from before is a different cowl, new prop, and a big radiator under the fuselage. Prop is at 23 degrees. Acceleration and takeoff is faster/shorter. 3 lb increase in weight, 25mm shift aft in CG. It's a totally different airplane now..."
Amazing that an engine with half the displacement of an air cooled rival can fly over 35 mph faster
Modern engines are no joke. A LOT of technology went into these engines. In fact, most have NO idea of the fractured rods, offset crankshafts, grooved main bearings, coated piston skirts, variable valve lift and timing, direct injected fuel or host of details that have made all other engines fall behind.
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Permalink Reply by Samuel Warner on
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"If you want to sell your car engines why not just do it on your own web site, this is not a commercial forum and pushing your products here is against the forums rules."
Mr. Legg, this is the Viking Forum. It's about Viking Aircraft Engines and their products for the Zenith community.
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Permalink Reply by Oliver Reik on
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Sorry to say that, but I doubt that the purpose of this forum is to bash competitors. This is also not the Viking forum but the Viking category as a part of the Zenith forum, to discuss Viking engines and topics associated with them. Jan can do this in his own forum or in his newsletter, I however doubt that too many people in this forum appreciate his aggressive, bragging promotions.
I am particularly surprised (and disgusted) by how Jan points out that Continental is owned by Chinese, suggesting that this would somehow make them produce bad engines. Cirrus and Volvo are also owned by Chinese, iPhones are even made in China. So what? Honda is owned by Japanese and their engines are are assembled with globally sourced components, just like everybody else's. In fact, the 130 hp Fit engine is not even assembled in the US, according to Honda's own factbook:
http://hondanews.com/releases/cc3e62e7-60da-4350-880b-8d5fa24c139e/... (Pages 4.2 and 4.5)
This article actually suggests that the engine is made in Malaysia: https://www.torquenews.com/1574/built-japan-2017-honda-fit-15-mexican
Continental, on the other hand, is investing $40 million in their Alabama engine plant: http://www.madeinalabama.com/2017/03/continental-motors/
Jan's statements regarding Continental are unprofessional and just make him look bad.
Making claims is cheap - he yet has to prove that his engines are as reliable as the 'old' technology. Keep in mind, that not too many Viking 130s have flown yet and very few of them have accumulated any significant amount of hours. Additionally, it is indeed a very modern (read: very complex) engine, which is now run with an aftermarket ECU and to which a ton of other stuff has been added. I don't see what could possibly go wrong... ;-)
While an elevated risk of failure has to be expected in an experimental engine package, which was brought to the market with only minimal testing, I think that the claim that it is a 'Honda', indirectly suggesting that customers can expect Honda reliability, is absolutely misleading.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Warner on
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I disagree that the Viking engine is a very complex engine, and has a ton of other stuff added that makes it less reliable than in an automobile. If anything, it's a much simpler engine after removing all the automobile specific components. Being that it is a Honda engine, why would it be misleading to suggest that customers can expect Honda reliability? I've spoken to many Viking engine owners and don't know any who have unrealistic expectations just because it's a Honda. Being that you have no interest in Viking engines, why are you even concerning yourself with what Jan says on the Viking Forum?
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Let me answer your last question first - I was close to ordering a Viking and am also generally interested in engine options. Besides of that, when I see a topic that catches my interest, I read it and respond when I believe that I have some value to add to the discussion.
Direct injection in itself is very complex and hard to make reliable in the long term. The timing of the injection also has to be very precise, an additional high pressure pump is needed, etc.. This document might be a good starting point for you to learn more about gasoline direct injection (GDI): http://www.consulab.com/files/gdiHandoutrev20161e.pdf (actual content starts at page 8)
Additionally, the 130 hp Fit engine is equipped with variable cam timing, what is another pretty complex thing to do, while it is of little benefit in an airplane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC
The more powerful Viking engines are also equipped with turbochargers, what adds another layer of complexity.
The reason why it is misleading to promote them as "Hondas", in terms of reliability, is that many of the critical components and characteristics are NOT Honda, despite of the delicate requirements to keep a GDI engine happy: ECU (control unit) and its calibration, fuel system, cooling system, gearbox, wiring harness, mounting, installation space, torsional vibration, prolonged operation at high rpm / high load, operation with AVGAS, etc...
Now, I am not saying that any of this will necessarily become a problem, but the changes are very high that some of them will, particularly since only minimal testing went into the development of the Viking engines.
You might also want to look back at some of our past discussions, which made it clear that Jan prefers trial and error over a more scientific approach - he was for example neither able to answer why his engines supposedly makes 130 hp at around 1,000 rpm less than stated by Honda, nor what the actual flow rate of his fuel pumps is. He just didn't know and simply stated that is worked in a certain installation. Not very convincing in my opinion and, in combination with the tone of his aggressive promotional posts which I don't like, one of the reasons why I am glad that I did not go with an Viking, even though I still think that it is an attractive, well performing option.
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