Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers
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The Viking 150 Release
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Simmons on
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Come on, Jan, stop teasing us! Give us a little more to go on. Anything about this going to be on your web site soon?
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Permalink Reply by Jan Eggenfellner on
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Hey Bob, we will have more out soon, will probably have some more information up this weekend! -Alissa
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Thanks, Alissa. I have questions, but I didn't want to pester you with them until you get more info posted.
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No problem, feel free to email me or ask away any time.
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Okay, since you offered....
The factory specs for the R18 show 139 HP. What do you do to it to get those 11 extra ponies?
Will there be an exhaust system, cowlings, etc. available? If so, how soon?
Will it fit the standard engine mount you offer?
And of course, how much?
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Any updates on when we might see something on the web site? I'm very interested in this engine. I might well be one of the first buyers, but I'd really like to see more information.
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Permalink Reply by David Larson on
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Here's a link to a youtube video that just came out from Experimental Aircraft Channel.
Looks like they have to finalize the program yet.
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Thanks so much, David. That answered several of my questions. But I have to admit it's prompted me to have a couple more new questions. Ain't that just typical?
It looks good. I like that the FWF will be nearly the same for the 750, maybe even a bit simpler, as Alissa said. I have the STOL kit, but I'm more interested in better cruise than better STOL performance, and it sounds like the advantage the 150 will have over the 130 will manifest more in STOL performance. Let's face it, you're pretty limited when it comes to increasing the cruise performance of a 'dirty' airframe like the 750 STOL. The Cruzer probably would have been a better choice for me, but the Cruzer didn't exist yet when I bought my kit. I'm thinking of just leaving off my slats, but that's a topic for a different post. So it appears the jury is still out on whether I'd get enough of the kind of performance improvement I'm looking for, to justify the increased cost.
The comment about detonation with this engine also raises questions for me. There still aren't many airports selling mogas. That's no problem at home because I live in an airpark and I'll have my own fuel trailer. With either the 130 or 150 I'd probably need TCP/Decalin if I went cross country or otherwise had to refuel with avgas somewhere else, but the comments made it sound like this will possibly be more of a concern with the 150. That may be no concern at all though, so it'd be nice to know more.
I also have to admit that there's a guy who has really sold me recently on the benefits of direct injection like that on the 130, so I'm kind of reluctant to move away from that. I don't want to name names, but the guy's initials are Jan Eggenfellner.
Obviously this is all still in the preliminary stage, and the 'impressions' I have at this point may turn out to be non-issues, minimal to the point of being irrelevant, or just mistaken impressions entirely. I'm actually glad to hear that they're still a couple months out on this so more information can come out before the engines start shipping (I'd kinda like to have one of the initial batch if I end up going with the 150). The lure of extra horsepower is very inviting, but it may well turn out that the 130 is still a better choice for me. I really wish some of this stuff was on the Viking web site. There's no clue on their web site whatsoever that there might be a new engine added to their lineup. Seems a little weird that you can only discover that by going to other sites, but I understand they're probably very busy and things are happening fast, so I don't really fault them for that. Been there and done that so many times myself before.
Thanks again for posting this link. It was very helpful.
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Viking has posted two new videos on the 150. The first is a new installation on a 750 STOL (presumably the first), but there's no accompanying text or narration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO7BKWRgIuk
And there's a new, detailed video on the installation. Viking does such great work on their detailed videos.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzztFxSBdU
Still hoping to hear more on performance.
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Is anyone able to give a little explanation of the pros and cons of port injection vs. direct injection? That seems to be the major difference between these two engines, other than the horsepower figures. I am very close to choosing a new engine for my 750 STOL, and there's really nothing I can find that discusses the factors that would affect making a choice between the 130 and 150. Jan touched on the differences a little in the EAC video, but he downplayed the issues in a way that seemed to make the difference between the engines to be almost negligible. So I'm looking for the marketing differences between the two. What does one offer that the other doesn't? Where might one engine be better suited to a specific aircraft or type of aircraft operation? Where might one be more suited to STOL, and the other not so much? And I guess maybe a little more to the point for some of us, what does the 150 offer over the 130 that makes it worth the higher price? I just don't want to discover down the road that I picked the wrong engine for my new airplane. And I only use the word "wrong" to mean the less advantageous choice for my aircraft and type of use. I don't mean to imply that there's anything "wrong" with either engine. They're both great choices. I'm just trying to figure out which would be the better choice for me.
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Permalink Reply by Keith Thomas on
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Will this help? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFF5MrrQ5BQ
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That explains quite a bit. Thanks, Keith. I'd still like to hear this from an aircraft perspective rather than automotive. We all know things from the automative world don't necessarily apply to aircraft operations, or don't apply in the same way. For instance, since aircraft operate at a continuous high setting, fuel efficiency is an entirely different matter than in the automotive world. Temperatures are different, etc., etc. You get the idea. I was kind of hoping Jan or someone similar would chime in. The video seems to make the pros and cons of both injection methods balance out fairly well. Direct injection appears to be more efficient, but port injection keeps the valves cleaner. No apparently clear overall winner there.
The 150 is higher priced than the 130, but what do I get for that extra money and extra five pounds? Obviously there's extra horsepower, but what difference could someone reasonably expect to get with that extra horsepower on a 750 STOL? That's where we have to have more information to make our decisions. Would there be a 2 MPH difference in cruise, or would there be more? What difference would there be in STOL performance? Torque? Those are the kind of questions we need answers to before we can reliably determine if the 150 represents the value for money to justify the extra cost in our various individual circumstances. If the higher horsepower is essentially the only appreciable reason for the higher price, we need to have at least some idea what those extra ponies are going to do for us in our individual circumstances. An extra 6 MPH in cruise on my 750 STOL would be far more significant to me than 2 MPH.
In this video, the fuel efficiency and valve cleanliness seem to make the differences between the different methods of fuel injection very minor, if not essentially irrelevant. Jan has made comments that the 150 is built more stoutly than the 130, but what differences are we likely to see based on that stronger construction? Are there failures or other factors in the 130 that the 150 construction might minimize or cure? Are the TBO numbers better, or is the higher strength just a higher comfort factor?
Basically we need someone to 'sell' this engine to us. Give us the information we need to see the advantages of the new engine over the 130. Let us have what we need to determine if this engine is a good fit for us. I myself for instance, would love to have the extra horsepower, but I don't really know what difference that horsepower will make on my plane. And would that difference be enough for me to decide the new engine is worth the extra price? What makes it worth the extra money? I know some of this has to be subjective, and you can't accurately determine what difference the 150 would make on a specific aircraft until you actually try it on that model of aircraft. But at least some educated guesses on what we might expect to see would be nice before we spend thousands of extra dollars. I'm not faulting Jan or anyone else at Viking. I know they're incredibly busy right now with everything they've got going on. I'm just rapidly approaching a decision point for my engine, and I'd love to be one of the first buyers of the 150. I just can't justify that much money on what is essentially an unknown at this point. I'm quite aware this might turn out to be something I just have to try in order to get the final answers, because there's no other way for anyone to know without actually doing it. But I'd at least like to see some sort of mention or discussion of these matters before taking that big of a leap of faith. If there's no way to adequately answer my questions, then please say so. Obviously I won't like it, but at least I'd know that some thought has been given to it.
I apologize if I'm sounding too demanding or being too nit-picky. This vacuum of silence is just incredibly frustrating to me because of the point I'm at in my decision making process. I'm just scared of making a multi-thousand dollar mistake due to lack of information. And knowing my luck, six months after I make my order, they'll announce a new engine with hybrid injection like that discussed in the video.
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