Zenith Aircraft Builders and Flyers
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Experimental aircraft business practices (a rant)
I'm new to experimental aviation, so I'm not sure if what I'm about to describe is considered acceptable in this industry, but I've been buying some things to upgrade my new-to-me CH-701 and so far I'm baffled by the business practices I'm encountering (I am not referring to the Zenith Aircraft Company here).
I'm posting this here because I need a reality check. Are my expectations are too high? Have a look and tell me if you think these things are acceptable:
- Not disclosing how much will be charged for shipping and crating (I had to back-calculate it from my credit card statement).
- Charging a "crating" fee for a product that weighs three pounds.
- Admitting parts weren't made to spec and then telling the customer to modify them instead of offering to replace them.
- Requiring customers to send in paperwork to create an account before they can purchase an $8 tool.
- Asking a customer to send credit card information by email, including the security code.
- Keeping a customer's credit card information on file.
- Requiring a customer to pay by wire transfer in a foreign currency to a numbered account, then when a receipt is requested, telling them to "write Paid on the invoice".
- Showing a drawing of the product but not indicating which of the parts are actually included, so a reasonable person would be misled into thinking more is included than is part of the product.
- Not acknowledging an order until the customer sends a follow-up email eleven days later.
- Not including a packing list in an order, so there's no way for the customer to know if they received all the parts of a multi-part product.
- Not sending a notification/tracking email when the order ships.
- Listing prices in only USD and then acting like they're doing you a favor when they let you pay in USD.
- Offering several different versions of a product online, but giving customers no way to compare the features of each, leading to an endless cycle of emails as you figure out what to order.
I've owned an aircraft for less than three months and I've already experienced all of the above. Is this normal? I run a non-aviation kit-based DIY business myself, but I can't imagine doing any of these things, and when I think about how my customers would react if I did, it makes me laugh.
If this is normal in aviation, how do you guys stand it? And why is it like this? Is it because each of these companies has a near-monopoly over their corner of the industry, with a line of customers that stretches out the virtual door and around the block, so they don't really suffer any consequence when they give bad customer service and fail to update their websites or even implement standard business practices? Personally, I'm reluctant to call them out by name or complain directly because for many of the products I want, there's only one source.
I don't know what can be done about it, if anything... mostly I'm just annoyed and needed to tell someone about it.
If something's bothering you, feel free to add to the list.
Cheers
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jan Eggenfellner on
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Hey Matt, I'll give you my best answer via how we handle our business and also how our handlings are with customers and other aviation businesses.
The random crating fees and not stating shipping charges etc should not happen in my opinion. The made to spec I think has a shelf life, if people are coming back ten years later and expecting something replaced that is different, if we do even "upgrades" a lot of times we replace those for free or cost with our company, even if not "spec"
The card on file thing is pretty standard, I pay everyone that way it makes it so easy on my end and all our customers request it to make it easier later as well. As far as sending it email, most people I know are not comfortable with that, so they should offer to call, email, text with it whichever they would like, or have a store platform they can use themselves. It should not be done without permission. The paying in USD as a favor thing is a bit weird.
I think having to follow up with companies as often isn't usually all that standard, BUT I know a lot of companies are bombarded right now. I've had some not so good customer service from companies, that are usually great, but right now...not so. Tracking information should be sent.
Just my two cents. I think some of the things listed above are a little nit picky, but if this is all coming from one company I can understand the irritation.
Customer service should be number one, ALONG with a product and a lot of these things listed are very simple fixes and easy to do.
Anywho, hopefully they are just really busy and things improve. -Alissa
Happy Building and don't sweat the small stuff too much!
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Permalink Reply by Matt Pope on
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Thanks, Alissa/Jan - that all makes sense. I think if every business was as conscientious as Viking, I'd have nothing to complain about :)
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Permalink Reply by John Austin on
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Wow, that's quite a list of bad experiences! I hope most of those were with one vendor and not 13 different ones! However, in my experience, no, it's NOT typical of the industry! I started into EAB building about 12 years ago and I honestly can't think of ever having a bad experience with aviation vendors. I have, however, had a number of positive experiences - here's my list:
- Bought a partially-built kit and was able to transfer the kit serial number and plans to me and receive the same level of support from the kit manufacturer as if I had purchased it from them. (Thanks, Zenith!)
- Did beta-testing for an avionics company and was told to keep $1500 worth of avionics for free when the testing was completed. A few years later, the item became non-functional and was sold an upgraded and much-improved replacement with a 50% discount! (Thanks, uAvionix!)
- Purchased a FWF kit for my STOL 750 from Jabiru and was later given at least a couple of additional parts for free. (Thanks, Jabiru!)
- Had the CEO personally answer my email query about a product ... on a Sunday afternoon! (Thanks, AeroLED!)
- Needed hardware for a used ignition switch and inquired with the company and they simply sent the hardware absolutely free. (Thanks, ACS Products!)
- Needed additional part to install an existing part, inquired, and was sent the additional part absolutely free. (Thanks, Aircraft Specialty!)
- Received extensive technical support on wiring my aircraft even though much of the wiring was not directly in relation to their power panel. (Thanks, Composite Design!)
I'm sure there are many other positive experiences I've had that I've forgotten. I've found that vendors to the experimental market tend to have a passion for what they do and they truly want you to be satisfied with their product and more importantly, safe. However, since some of these are very small "mom and pop" shops; they definitely have their own preference for communications, orders, support, etc. Although most everyone posts phone numbers and email addresses on their ads, some are definitely more responsive or faster to respond via one method versus the other. It shouldn't be that way, but sometimes that's just the way it is! Things are usually resolved very quickly if you simply ask the vendor what and when is the best method to communicate. Also remember that the small companies completely shut down when they take vacation, are sick, or go to the major fly-ins such as AirVenture and Sun 'n Fun.
I'm sure there are a few bad apples out there and it's a shame - but yes, there is something you can do about it! Contact the vendor in question and give them a chance to make it right - most will. If they don't, vote with your wallet and take your business elsewhere! Forums such as these are excellent resources for learning about where to go for the parts and service that you want.
Hope your string of bad luck/bad experiences has run out and you'll now experience the EAB business community I've enjoyed!
John
N750A
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Couldn't agree more here John.
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Thanks, John - that's just the kind of response I needed. I already felt much better after a good night's sleep, but your stories remind me that overall my head-first dive into experimental aviation has been really positive, and I shouldn't let the quirks of a few vendors get to me. I think it would be hard to find a more helpful group of people than the EA community in general, and I'm really grateful for that. Cheers!
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Permalink Reply by Jim and Amelia Isaacs on
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Looks like under the law of averages, the bad experiences just front-loaded on you- you can solve this problem by just buying lots more aviation stuff for your airplane from as many vendors as you can find, that will flatten the curve :)
I've been fortunate- Zenith, Lockwood, Whirlwind, Aircraft Spruce, ACR, all positive experiences, including the inevitable mistakes or quality issues, all have been resolved in good faith from my experiences. Most of your list indicates laziness or a lack of customer focus, but #3 is just awful, and #7 is flat out scary. Perhaps you can find alternate sources of supply. There was one very bad one early on though for me. If one or more of your listed experiences were with a small Rotax engine maintenance business up there in Canada, PM me. If it's the same one, you should know what happened.
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Permalink Reply by Geoff Klestadt on
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I've had nothing but good experiences building a CH750. That includes dealing with Zenith, Skytek, Rotax, Dynon, Airmaster, Trig, Spruce, McFarlane, Andair and a few others. I'm in Australia and yes, I have paid a small fortune in shipping costs, but the service I have had from these mainstream American suppliers has been superlative.
Paying and pricing in USD? Yes, I expect that, otherwise the supplier has to compensate for exchange rate risks all the time and that means higher prices. Why should the supplier have to care about the exchange rates for Australian dollars, Turkish lire, Euros, pounds, etc., etc. - and adjust her prices in those currencies every day, not to mention adjusting for Paypal, credit card fees, bank drafts, etc?
Tracking and packing lists? Yes, I would expect that along with a professionally designed website, email notifications, everything.
What I've liked best about Zenith is the ability to call Roger for advice or Joyce (now retired?) and order parts over the telephone.
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That's great to hear, Geoff!
To be clear, I don't mind paying in USD, but what I don't understand is the two diffferent vendors who asked me for a currency other than the one they advertise their prices in (one advertises in Euros but wants USD, the other advertises in USD but wants Canadian dollars).
It's actually very easy now to make a website that automatically shows prices in different currencies based on the geolocation of the viewer's IP address. My website accepts seventeen different currencies and automatically adjusts the exchange rates every five minutes based on the global currency exchanges. I set it up myself in less than a day, no coding required. You can even add a price markup for foreign currencies to compensate for the conversion fees (it takes about two minutes to set up and then you never have to think about it again). The whole website, including software that automatically fetches shipping costs to any address in the world, costs me less than $200 per year, so if a company sells internationally, there's really no excuse not to do it.
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